Friday, February 13, 2009

Life's Little Quirks

Nearly ten years ago, IBM announced plans for a massive supercomputer that would be employed to help scientists understand the complex nature of protein folding. A protein’s structure and its function are so closely related that any “mis-fold” will alter the protein so much that it ceases to function properly. IBM’s goal was to better understand these folds in order to further our understanding of disease and the manner in which information is encoded biologically.

From IBM:

“Protein architecture is based on three principles:

1. The formation of a polymer chain
2. The folding of this chain into a compact function-enabling structure, or native structure
3. Post-translational modification of the folded structure

The protein chain (or peptide chain if short in length) is a heteropolymer built up from alpha amino acid monomers…. The sequence of amino acid residues in the peptide chain is termed the primary structure of the protein. The 20 different choices for each amino acid in the chain give the possibility of enormous diversity, even for small proteins. For example, a peptide of 30 residues yields the astonishing number of about 20^30, or approximately 10^39, possible unique sequences.From the enormous number of possible protein sequences that could exist, we observe relatively few in nature.

It is thought that the diversity of viable proteins has been constrained by natural selection to give:
1. Desired function
2. Adequate stability
3. Foldability
4. Evolvability
from appropriate evolutionary precursors

…The fact that a subset of heteropolymers constructed from amino acids and used in biological processes actually take on reproducible three-dimensional structures in a relatively short time of seconds or less is one of the marvels of nature.”

So, IBM recognizes that there is a certain niftiness when it comes to life. Without life existing, the formation of a protein polymer chain coincident with those found in life even under ideal conditions would be a rare happening (so rare that has yet to be duplicated in a laboratory environment). Add to that the idea that the proteins then need to fold into a certain shape and join with other proteins in a specific manner to form a cell. Oh, and just for kicks… there are two distinct types of amino acids and one cannot join with the other.

Within a living organism or a virus, RNA/DNA carries the instructions that “tell” these proteins how to form. Outside of living organisms, there would exist a multitude of iterations for proteins, each as likely as the next. Still, as a general rule, the “primordial soup” theory of naturalistic formation is taught as fact.

Why? It seems incredibly unlikely, does it not? In spite of a complete lack of proof, we’re told to believe basically that since life had to come from Earth and this is really the only “reputable” (i.e. non-creationist) theory out there, it must be true. Prior to researching this topic, I had assumed that the “soup” had gone by the wayside by now (along with ideas like centrifugal force and static universe theories). I recall questioning the “soup” explanation in an eighth grade Earth Science course because it really made little or no sense then (and I really didn’t question anything when I was 13). Now, I just marvel at the fact that one naturalist writing after another references this theory (or fact, as it is usually written) on how we arrived here. If I were a naturalist, I would demand a better explanation. Perhaps there is one out there that my research didn’t happen upon. If there is, it would probably be worthwhile to send an email or two to inform a few of our foremost naturalist proponents.

I have been accused (more than once) of abandoning science. In my defense, I don’t believe I have departed from scientific facts and observation; rather, science can only tell us so much about the things we’ve discussed thus far. Science can tell us, for instance, that time began or that cosmic background radiation exists. It can tell us that galaxies are real, that the universe is expanding, that matter/energy interactions always result in more disorder than before, and that the existence of life is an undeniable truth. Hopefully I have never asserted anything that goes against the list above.

When science offers no solution, though, we have to default to logic and reason (I think I was pretty clear in Week 2 that logic and reason should be among our tools). If I were to give evidence that contradicted observables, I would expect to be called on it; however, there is no reason we can’t use reason to go beyond limited facts (not “against” facts, mind you… “beyond” facts). So, let’s gear up those minds of ours and look at the problem at hand:

Hypothesis: Life can come from non-life.
Background information: The basic components of life are amino acids (organic molecules).
Test: Simulate the conditions found in the oxygen-poor early Earth to try to create life.
Result: Amino acids are created under the appropriate conditions.
Conclusion: Life forms when the amino acids we observed form together into proteins like those found in life (chances: “relatively few” in 10^39) then those proteins (which we can’t create, except from life) fold in a perfect manner (which we can’t even comprehend without a multimillion-dollar supercomputer) to create cells.

Oh, and if oxygen is present, the whole thing goes to pot.

Did I miss a step?

So, why do we assume that life can come from non-life? And, why in the world do we teach it as fact? By all means, keep experimenting… there is, after all, a “relatively few” in 10^39 chance that you’ll happen upon the right results by accident. Here’s the real kicker: If a scientist were ever to create life in a beaker, what would that prove? That a supremely intelligent being can set perfect conditions to create life from non-life?

46 comments:

Steven Stark said...

Nice post! Life is crazy. What makes something "work" or be alive, and then "not work" or be dead? It's crazy. I'm always fascinated by that. What changes something like a computer into consciousness? I've read a little on this but not enough.

Did life come from non-life? At some point I suppose, but if ours didn't, once again it just pushes back the beginning. Maybe God did it (though surely in ways much beyond what our myths and even science can only barely describe). But does that count according to your scientific methods which are measuring physical life? If God is spirit (supernatural) then how did he create material stuff?

If the argument is supernatural then we're back to last week. If the argument is probability then we're back to last week, etc. etc, etc.

If there are 100 billion planets in the solar system and only 1 can support life, well I guess we're on it!

Vernicus said...

I think the same arguments apply from last week to this week.

So far you've proposed no benefits or consequences to subscribing to your explanation over that of an agnostic, other than faith you have the answer, and the answer is God. This isn't wholly controversial in and of itself, and since you've been so careful to separate yourself from the Bible at this juncture, I'll pretend I don't know where we're headed.

My entirely off the cuff lazy uneducated response to the questions posed:

"So, why do we assume that life can come from non-life?" And, why in the world do we teach it as fact?

I was taught that God created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th. I find "let there be light" as hard to swallow as primordial ooze.


"If a scientist were ever to create life in a beaker, what would that prove? "

If an archeologist were able to show the earth was over 10000 years old, what would that prove? If an astronomer were able to show we weren't the center of the universe, what would that prove? If a biologist was able to describe the mechanism by which life evolved, explaining the diversity of life on earth, what would that prove? If a scientist were able to clone a human, would birth still be a miracle?

I guess the answer is everything and nothing, just depends on what team you're on.

As our understanding of the natural world expands, does god's role contract?

They'll always be able to retreat to the something from nothing shelter, unless a scientist creates a universe in a beaker ;)

"That a supremely intelligent being can set perfect conditions to create life from non-life?"

There's a hole in the bucket,
Dear Liza, dear Liza
There's a hole in the bucket,
Dear Liza, there's a hole.

Kristin said...

Randy-

Good post. I noticed that you did not draw any conclusions in this post so really nothing to argue for or against. But I do agree that if I were a naturalist, I would hope to find a better explanation than the primordial soup theory. And I especially like your last line- even if a scientist were ever to create life in a beaker it would just be more evidence for the fact that... it takes an intelligent being to create life!

Vernicus said...

Kristin,

I suppose the divide is the difference between a supernatural and natural explanation.

If a scientist can make life in a beaker, then we'd have a natural explanation.

Randy's argument as I understand it evokes a supernatural being with no cause as the necessary cause to supernaturally design and initiate life. Personally, even this isn't altogether unpalatable. It's a leap of faith in the absence of knowledge, but any answer in this scenario is a leap of faith to a certain degree. (hence my "i don't know" position)

I like that this casts aside the genesis 7 day creation myth and at least acknowledges an old earth, evolution friendly worldview.

Before Darwin, we'd of been able to go a step further and point to the diversity of life and how each individual animal was handcrafted by god to fit into their environment.

Before Copernicus/Gallilleo we'd of been able to go a step further and point to the "heavens" and how we're the center of the universe.

Before germs, saying "god bless you" was the most effective way of avoiding the plague.

Before our understanding of hurricanes and tornadoes, they were a tool of god to punish the wicked.

Up until last week, HIV was a death sentence, but thanks to stem cells from naturally immune people, we might have done something prayers have been trying to do for 30 years.

As our understanding of the natural world expands, does god's supernatural role contract?

If you answer yes, then the scientist who is able to create life in a beaker is a great man who's taken the super out of the natural for the 1000th time.

If you answer no, then the scientist is "playing god" and should be excommunicated.

It takes a brave person to take the super out of the natural in a world where so many depend on the supernatural to justify their social and moral authority.

Steven Stark said...

Jamin, nice post. Very thoughtful.

Kristin said...

Jamin-

“If a scientist can make life in a beaker, then we'd have a natural explanation.”

Not really. The theory of naturalistic biologists is that life generated spontaneously from nonliving chemicals by natural laws without any intelligent intervention. If a scientist could make life in a beaker, we would certainly be looking at intelligent intervention, thereby proving/explaining very little about the origin of first life. Unless and until spontaneous generation of life (without inerference) is observed, it will take a big leap of faith to believe that this is how first life began.

“As our understanding of the natural world expands, does god's supernatural role contract?”

I personally would answer that our understanding of God’s supernatural role expands as our understanding of the natural world expands. As a believer in God, I believe He created the world and everything in it. Finding out more scientifically, for me, is just finding out how He did what He did.

It seems that you are insinuating that God becomes smaller or of lesser use as science answers questions. So while we had X number of "gaps" to fill a 500 years ago, now we only have Y number of gaps, therefore lesser need for God. And you seem to be asserting that if/when a scientist creates life in a beaker, we will have fewer gaps and therefore an even lesser need for God. But I would propose that we actually have more need for God the more answers we get. Our questions are now more complex than they ever were. We don't seem to have less gaps now than we did 500 years ago. The gaps are just different. Does that mean that a supernatural explanation is warranted for every gap? Certainly not. But, since all of our answers so far have only led to more questions, IF evidence points to the supernatural, I don't think that evidence should just be ignored based on a preconceived naturalistic worldview (as seems to be the case for life).

Randy said...

Kyle,

With the tornado/internet problem, I forgot to say welcome. Good to have a new reader.

I've spoken with you enough before to know that you most certainly do have something "to add of any intellectual value". I expect that you'll challenge me and that you will have a lot of questions. I just hope you'll be genuinely introspective as you read this.

Vernicus said...

"Unless and until spontaneous generation of life (without inerference) is observed"

Let me make sure I understand you...

A scientist who isn't able to create life in a beaker = Proof of God

A scientist who IS able to create life in a beaker = Proof of God

I guess "create life" should be better defined. I'm intending "create life" to evoke a sense of fairness. I "create life" whenever I leave food out too long, this doesn't require a scientist. When I imagine a scientist "creating life in a beaker" I guess I took it to mean he's taking known materials available on pre-life earth, and through a natural process ( possibly electricity from lightning) in a sterile environment creating life.

I look at this scenario and question why we need a supernatural explanation if we've displayed a natural process to get there from here.

"I personally would answer that our understanding of God’s supernatural role expands as our understanding of the natural world expands. As a believer in God, I believe He created the world and everything in it. Finding out more scientifically, for me, is just finding out how He did what He did. "

So by "finding out scientifically...just how He did what He did" you mean taking Genesis as a nice story, but not literally creating the world in 6 days and resting on the 7th?

When I say that god's role is growing smaller, I'm speaking from a human perspective. Imagine yourself in my shoes, and you think man created god as a means of explaining how things came to be, how things work, and what happens when mom dies. If you think god was created to explain things, then god was science before science. In the past, it was God who created rainbows as a promise to not flood the earth again. Now it's the light spectrum. In the past, God chose the sex of a baby, now it's the xy chromosome. Why is the sky blue? Where did we come from? Why are we right? Who gave us permission? God, God, God, and God. There might be a reason why fundamentalist countries fall behind in math and science, and that reason is they've already got the answer to every problem: GOD.

Can you imagine a scenario where you'd abandon your belief in God? If your position is absolutely irrefutable and untestable, then it might be fanaticism instead of the well reasoned and rational position you want to present. I feel like you're playing Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon while I'm simply trying to remember Tom Hanks' co-star Big.

Stephen Hawking worked for 20 years on research relating to black holes. He was made famous with his research, only to come out 20 years later and prove he was wrong and explain why. I suppose this can be viewed in one of two ways. To me this is the beauty of science, where pride takes a backseat to the underlying pursuit of accuracy. Of course, a critic of science could point to his admission as irrefutable proof that science was wrong, and also point out that God has been right for all eternity.

I can imagine an infinite number of scenarios in which I'd believe in the supernatural, but as of yet, all have either been cheap tricks or unnecessary leaps of faith that were no more beneficial than a self help book or placebo. But I've not closed the book on it, not by a long shot. A critical part of admitting you don't know is actively whittling away at what is knowable. Building from the ground up instead of the top down.

(That and not being afraid of the dark)

Skyhook said...

The little quirks of the creationist argument.

Without life existing, the formation of (an eye, a wing, a bacterial flagellum *too bad you can’t use strikethrough in blogger comments*) a protein polymer chain coincident with those found in life even under ideal conditions would be a rare happening. The way this statement is phrased parrots how it has been phrased for hundreds of years. The only change is the item under review. But why is the item under review changing and why are we now looking at a protein polymer chain?

This argument can choose to look at any of the artifacts of life. For it would be truly amazing to find something such as a tooth, feather, or a turd just happening without life existing. It would rare indeed. However, a historical look at this unproductive argument shows that what works best is not to consider any old artifact, but to try to aim for one that lies in the gap what has been explained. The reason why the artifact is changing is because the gap narrows as scientific methods are used to investigate the seeming anomaly. So here we are today looking at the complexity of protein polymer chain, something complex enough that we don’t have a perfect explanation (Just as they eye was, just as the wing was, and just was the bacterial motor flagellum was).

I am curious to see the list of materials you read while doing research for this post. One wonders if you set out to find an example of improbable complexity in a tech press release, found a caricature of a present origin of life hypotheses, and called it a day. There is no mention of the beginning of simple replicators, heredity, selection, or any of the variables that are pertinent to explaining the complexities of life (remember, the protein polymer chain is not the first artifact to be in this argument, and all of the others that have been in this argument where explained by looking down similar avenues). No mention of Miller and Urey’s experiment, or E.C.C. Baly, or J.B.S. Haldane, or Oparin. No mention of Graham Cairn-Smith’s inorganic mineral crystal hypothesis. And no mention of RNA World theory.

At first I thought I thought it would be best for me to explain the details of some of the works mentioned above. I thought it would help if I were to show that the primordial soup theories are more than soup + magic = the complexity of life. But then I had a feeling of hopelessness. I realized that I could spend all week summarizing this research only to have you wave it off and continue with the same argument, just like you are doing with the anthropic principle. So I figure leaving several names and maybe a book recommendation might be better (maybe something by Stuart Kauffman, or Francis Crick, or Sol Speigelman…).

All of these whittle away at your posed niftiness. None of them require positing an even more nifty problem. If the odds of amino acids forming proteins is x and that is difficult to grasp, and the odds of the universe having such properties is y and that is difficult to grasp, then why should we even consider considering the odds of something that has the ability to create both in by an unknown process?

You have not been accused of simply abandoning science. You have been using science in a fine fashion describing things such as background radiation. It is your logic applied to these facts that provides reasonable doubt. When the facts run out and we do not have an explanation, it is reasonable to say we don’t have an explanation, as of now. If you are to posit a supernatural explanation, it will remain outside of logic so long as it cannot be differentiated from the Unicorn Pooping Hypothesis.

Steven Stark said...

Well put, Skyhook and Jamin.

From a science perspective - We can't just say the answer is magic or ancient myth because we don't understand everything.

From a faith perspective - I think this justification of faith is building a house on sand. Mixing logos and mythos is like mixing oil and water. They are both necessary, and they need each other, but they can't replace each other.

Vernicus said...

Steven,

Thanks for the kind words!

Please don't take this the wrong way, and I say this with kind curiosity:

How is Mythos necessary?

Steven Stark said...

Jamin,

It's a great question. I think that mythos can help us in a few ways. Here's some hasty, non-linear ideas:

meaning - science can't quantify meaning yet. I think we all have very deep, perhaps subconscious motivations for our search for meaning. I think what drives religion is the same thing that drives art, literature, sports - anything that speaks to us in a symbolic way. How can we read a great novel and weep? We KNOW it's not real. Or is it? I think our imaginations have a lot of power. We have to focus them, not try to suspend them.

mystery - there will always be mystery in this life (I think!) Since we are a part of the universe how can we completely observe it objectively?

Symbolism is not fake - I think symbolism is about communicating real things - things where literal, vernacular speech just won't do the job.

Axioms - Any progression of logic starts with a point of faith. How do we describe the origins of a logical progression? Even the most scientific may be "reduced" to myth. If you don't want "God" you can plug in other words "love" "cosmic source" whatever works. The word is not as important as the "presence" of what you're describing

paradox - isn't just weird that many things that feel true are paradoxes? one has to lose their life to gain it, etc.

post-modernity - this is the cultural phenomenon that basically accepts the modern way of thinking (pure logic) as inadequate for communicating meaning.

finally - I love science, logic, fact. of course! But too often we treat scientific descriptions as "reductions" of meaning. I think we need other ways to communicate, that complement science

Randy said...

I hope that what you take away from this post more than anything is that the supposed science that gives us an explanation for life’s origin requires such a vast amount of faith that it is convicting of the naturalists who preach it as truth.

Jamin,

The last line was just a funny observation of what it would mean for a scientist to create life. Neither scientific failures to manufacture life nor a scientific success would “prove” God. As for Genesis, please continue to hold those horses. I hope that you can appreciate that I do try to put a great deal of time and energy into each subject and I simply cannot venture too far from the subject at hand.

You’ve addressed the evolution of the “gaps” a few different times now. I can’t speak to the beliefs of people from days gone by… whether the people of prior centuries believed in a geocentric universe really does not affect the arguments here, in much the same way that the “Christians” of the Inquisition (or the KKK for that matter) in no way affect my actions as a follower of Christ. If 99% of the earth’s population was wrong, the truth remains the truth.

…whittling as best I can…

Skyhook,

“I realized that I could spend all week summarizing this research only to have you wave it off and continue with the same argument, just like you are doing with the anthropic principle.”

I see that you’re frustrated but I honestly can’t understand why. There are a great many experiments I looked at prior to this post. The IBM research was something that looked to be easy to understand, so it was my example. I would urge you to summarize… I’m still reading throug the article you referenced last week and as soon as I have time to compare it against a few QM texts, I hope that I’ll be able to speak intelligently about it. I do my best to address everything you bring to the table (as long as it is not off-topic) and my goal is to honestly assess every resource you bring to my attention. I hope you had a chance to read my response to the probability article from UT.

If you’re able to offer a naturalist explanation for first life beyond what I’ve read, I would LOVE to hear it (and I mean that sincerely). All the stuff that I have read is bunk and makes no attempt to link findings to Darwinian “soup” theory.

All,

What really frustrates me is that some of your accusations basically equate me to a 5-year-old believing in the tooth fairy because there is money under my pillow. Here’s the difference: We understand the naturalistic, physical rules that govern our universe in such detail that we can make extraordinary predictions about things like Cosmic Background Radiation, primordial conditions on Earth, etc. In this understanding, we also know where exactly our naturalistic explanations fail.

If we’re looking at the tooth fairy example, you’ve armed the alarm to your room, and slept in a padlocked chest for which you’re the only keyholder. When you wake, and there’s a crips $5 bill under your pillow, shouldn’t you start to wonder?

Also, can we lay off the poop references?

Steven Stark said...

Poop is the great common denominator, Randy!

Humankind is not a $5 bill under a pillow. We're a stick under a pillow, a marble, a piece of lint, etc. There was no one sitting around waiting to see if humankind would show up under the pillow, calculating the odds in advance.

Once again, your probability arguments only work from the assumption that we had to be here. I don't see how that's a good assumption.

two questions:

1. Imagine that life did not evolve as it did, or perhaps not at all (out of the "soup"). how would you argue for the probability of that happening if that was reality?

2. What is the probability of God existing - not from our standpoint, which I believe is you using cause and effect backwards (God exists because we do). What's the probability of God existing, in and of His own existence, unrelated to ours?

Skyhook said...

Randy,

I am afraid I posted my last comment in haste. I do not want my typos (and thinkos!) and scatological references to take away from the points I wish to make. I aim to keep the arguments productive and I am afraid the style of my last post did not meet my aspiration.

The most salient point I wish to make is on the argument from personal incredulity. It often goes like this “I cannot think of an explanation for X; therefore Y must be true.” Historically, this argument winds up defeated time and time again. As science and technology marches on, explanations for X are provided. But setting X aside, Y is only assumed to be true by default, and this is not sound reasoning.

There is also a version of this argument that goes “I cannot think of an explanation for X; therefore X must be false. This might be closer to what is being posted here (at least explicitly). In the spirit of expanding on the premise of this argument, I would like to know a little bit about the experiments and materials you reviewed for this post. Then I can see where you are coming from or I can help you find some better experiments and materials.

I do not intend for my role to be your research assistance for this blog. If you are not here to just stride dogmatically for 52 weeks to your pre-chosen conclusion, it seems to me that the burden of understanding the leading hypotheses on the origin of life is on you. Maybe you have done good research and read through all of science’s best guesses. If you have, I would like to know your sources so that I may see what you have seen.

Before I attempt to assemble an essay explaining some of the leading theories of life’s origin, maybe you can check out the abiogenesis page on Wikipedia . Obviously Wikipedia is not a definitive source, but it can be a good starting point. The tone of that article is not one that indicates the problem has been solved and it has several good links to experiments and further reading. I urge all readers to briefly view this page.

In my experience, the texts that I have read do not teach origin of life hypotheses as fact. They often present more than one hypotheses with a clear disclaimer explaining that the hypotheses are untested. A logical case is presented and then the reader is left in a position of agnosticism regarding the specifics of how life got started.

If I remember correctly, the first time I encountered a textbook that even offered an explanation for life’s origin it was in AP Biology (high school). I do not remember the specific possibilities it gave, but I do remember panspermia was one among others. Of course this is not a satisfying explanation, but the reason I bring it up here is that origin explanations often come in multiples and are not treated as if the problem has been solved. Obviously we are reading different materials.

All posters and commenters, thank you for the stimulating material for thought.

Vernicus said...

"I can’t speak to the beliefs of people from days gone by…[they]in no way affect my actions as a follower of Christ."


I think Skyhook's observation is entirely relevant, but it would require an understanding of the arguments of people from days gone by to appreciate it. An eye, a wing, a bacterial flagellum were all the protein of their day.

The fundamental problem with your position is it revolves around what is NOT known. As with any top down position, you've started with a conclusion and will work to justify this conclusion. The inherent problem is it rewards ignorance. If you don't know, then you'll maintain the gap as a foothold for your conclusion.

Has everyone read Stuart Kauffman, or Francis Crick, or Sol Speigelman? No, but a physicist in an honest pursuit to understand the gap would generally consult the experts in the field instead of assuming he knows all there is to know.

The first line of your blog states:

"In my heart, I have always been and will always be a physicist."

(You spelled christian wrong ;)

Randy said...

It's not:

lack of evidence for other things equals God.

It's:

Evidence for God might equal God.

Some of the evidence for God is - at its core - a refutation of naturalistic explanations.

Skyhook,

The Wikipedia article you gave me says basically that RNA Theory cannot be true. I will say that it was my first glimpse at the "Radioactive Beach Theory", though. Wächtershäuser's Hypothesis concentrates on the energy source but not on how the polymers might form... in fact, that seems to be the case with each of these theories. I just don't see any legitimacy. The theories are a neat collection of could-be's and the alternative energy ideas are wowing, but I'm not sure we're any closer to a solid naturalistic theory. No matter where the energy comes from, the question remains "how did proteins form"?

Vernicus said...

"It's not:

lack of evidence for other things equals God.

It's:

Evidence for God might equal God.

Some of the evidence for God is - at its core - a refutation of naturalistic explanations."


Without getting into the walking on water, God is a free pass FROM physics. It's a concept FOR filling the gaps of what is known. As of yet, we're 6 weeks into your journey, and there hasn't been any direct evidence FOR god, just direct evidence of gaps in our understanding.

Your "evidence" presented so far is EXACTLY this : "lack of evidence for other things equals God."

I don't understand how you can see it any other way.

One of the benefits of being on your side of the fence is the D: None of the Above "evidence" it promotes. God never said "I folded the proteins in a great and powerful way" This is inferred by your understanding of god. And your understanding of god is only limited by your imagination, as you wholeheartedly believe he's an all knowing and all seeing supernatural super ultra mega god of limitless wonder and amazementednessedness.

The "evidence" for god is "evidence" of the unknown, but the faith in god is limitless. The eye was "evidence" for god, until our understanding caught up. The Wing was "evidence" for god, until our understanding caught up.

What you selectively ignore is the EVIDENCE that this argument is derived from 100's of failed predecessors. If the protein is figured out, you'll find another gap. Just as there are an infinite amount of gaps between the numbers 1 and 2, you'll always find gaps in a naturalistic explanation when it's not reproduced in front of your eyes. You've set the burden of proof very high, but the deductive "evidence" you provide for the supernatural amounts to NOTHING, ZERO, ZILCH. A gap can't point, because there's nothing there. You are projecting god in the gap.

Now in regard to holding my horses. Imagine yourself engaged in a blog with a scientologist. He's a nice enough fella, and he's giving you the milk before meat approach, the soft-sell. He doesn't start off with aliens seeding the planet, he starts off with pseudoscience.

Now during his pitch are you gonna sit there and listen and agree with his small assumptions, or are you gonna let him know you think he's nuts to believe in thetans?

Now I'm thoroughly convinced that even if we fill this gap with a perfectly natural explanation you'll be left with a "So THAT'S how God did it!" response and throw a party to celebrate god's wisdom and power and glory of god forever. As Kristin points out, from her/your perspective we're simply discovering HOW GOD DID WHAT HE DID. This isn't science, this isn't physics, and I wouldn't be here if you didn't claim to speak on behalf of science. There are a billion christian blogs out there, but the theophysics blogs are a rare and unforgettable treat!

Right now, you've set the bar incredibly low for god. D: None of the Above isn't evidence in physics, but it sure seems like you take it as evidence of the supernatural.

Skyhook said...

Nobody is making the claim that the origin of life problem has been solved or that it should be stated as fact; it seems you have created a strawman. I have not found any reputable sources that state otherwise. Scientists are working on the problem and considerable progress has been made, but no conclusion yet.

A brief read over the ultra-summarized Wikipedia page shows that scientists have a good lead on describing early conditions, determining the time frame when life began, forming amino acids in primordial conditions, spontaneously forming membranes, prototypical replicators, amino acids spontaneously forming small peptides, radio activity sufficient to form organic molecules, templates for replicators, etc, etc, etc. (etc!, etc!, etc!). The most complex problems have not yet been solved, but the simpler problems that form the scaffolding for the more complex problems are coming to light.

Back to the 5 year old and the tooth fairy example. We know at bedtime the alarm is armed and the padlock is locked. We don’t know how the tooth disappeared and the bill appeared. Science does not yet have the answers to these questions, but it has good leads. It has figured out a possible way to duplicate a key by taking a mold of the lock, it is researching ways to hack the alarm code by detecting smudges on the number pad – or by using brute force attacks. Scientists have found a wallet in the parents bedroom that contains similar bills. One research team is starting to claim that trace amounts of tooth have been discovered in Mom’s bathroom trashcan, but this has not been verified independently. An opened package of children’s Benedryl is found in the cupboard, etc, etc, etc. You get the point – not enough to reach a conclusion, but progress is being made.

There would be an extremely high risk of making an error (type I) by concluding at this point that it was the tooth fairy, specifically the one of the western myth. This leap to conclusion is essentially giving up before the investigation has really gotten underway. With no positive evidence indicting the tooth fairy, she is granted a privileged position of default. This is not how science, reason, or logic works.

Kyle said...

Randy,
Don't count on it, buster brown! I've all but given up on trying to talk about religion or politics with most people. I find it's more fun to sit on the sidelines and try to learn something. There is a point in life where most of us with lower IQ's should just allow the grown ups to talk. ;)
With that being said, I'd like to point out that a tornado in February is pretty rare...and I blame you and your blog plus the fact that our country lets gays get married for the tornado. You should be ashamed.
Seriously, are you guys okay? I mean...I assume that since you are posting blogs and stuff that things are at least back on for you...but did you get hit or what?

So far, everything I've read in your blogs makes me think of movies or TV...so that proves that I'm just a giant turd in the room for this conversation. The first thing I thought of is the last episode of Start Trek TNG where Q took Picard back to the primordial soup and stopped the formation of life. Then the three enterprises (past, present, and future) met...and everything went crazy.
What I'm trying to say is, if you don't believe in Q, he will eff you up, man.
...I cleaned up my language for you, buddy.
--Kyle

Kyle said...

P.S.
You have no idea how far over my head this all goes, man! I was able to keep up with you 10 years ago, but it was a struggle. Many bong hits later for me and many more years of gathering knowledge for you...the playing field isn't even in sight...
...but the GOOD news is that I'm on vacation this whole week, and when I'm not looking at porn, I'll be catching up on this whole thing...or at least trying to.
...and if I understand more than 25% of it, that is all the proof you need of the existence of God...

P.P.S. A spell checker would be nice...
...for me.
--Kyle

Steven Stark said...

I can't believe that we're only NOW getting around to referencing Star Trek TNG. It took long enough!

Kyle, Thanks for contributing more Q to this blog, which tends to be a lot more about finding A......

Skyhook said...

Bong hits and gathering knowledge are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Kristin said...

Yikes. It’s so hard to jump in after 23 comments, mostly off topic. Once again, most of you are arguing against a conclusion that has not been stated by Randy at all. If you read the OP, let me know where the conclusion, “therefore God exists” is. I certainly didn’t read that. He has not mentioned God as an inevitable conclusion in any post so far. So by saying that Randy’s argument is “lack of evidence for other things equals God” is quite a jump. Once again, most of you have jumped ahead to what you think he is going to say, what you assume he is thinking, and then arguing against that (which almost makes me think you’re arguing against the conclusion you yourself came to). It seems quite pointless really, as I think we all actually do agree on what was stated this week--- natural law does not (or does not yet) adequately explain the beginning of life. Don’t we all agree on that? Okay, just making sure…

I'm going to try to practice what I preach from now on and stay on topic. So if I'm quiet or unresponsive, it's probably not because I don't have an answer but because I don't want to clutter up this week with things we will get to later.

Looking forward to tomorrow's post!

Skyhook said...

Kristin,

I would agree with you if the title of this blog was The Never Ending Cliffhanger, but it is not. The title is 52 Blogs to Christ. (For the record, “God” does not appear in my comments in this thread).

What are we to make of statement’s like “When you wake, and there’s a crips $5 bill under your pillow, shouldn’t you start to wonder?” What is Randy urging us to wonder about? I suspect he is not urging us to wonder about purely a natural phenomena.

If we are to stick to the topic at hand, which seems to be a strawman of “naturalists who preach it [life’s origin] as truth,” it would be helpful if we had evidence of this occurrence. Since we do not, the avenue of productive argument that is available is demonstrating problems with arguing with absence of evidence as your evidence.

If we are jumping ahead a talking about what we think he is going to say, then we are putting ourselves at risk for embarrassment. The possibility exists that he is not framing these arguments to arrive at God/Christ. That is a risk the commenters seem to be willing to take.

Regardless, Randy’s posts have been doing a great job providing food for thought and providing fertile ground for discourse to flourish. He has demonstrated the ability to say when a comment goes too far beyond his intention. I say relax and join in the conversation. Even when we go off topic, there is plenty to learn and it often generalizes back to the topic.

Skyhook said...

I would like to add that I do agree with you on the last bit. I think we all agree that the problem of life's origin has not been completely worked out.

Vernicus said...


"I want to share with you the reasons that I first truly began to trust in God, Christ, and Biblical truth. .....I encourage you to comment and to challenge those things that leave you feeling unconvinced."

Vernicus said...
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Vernicus said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Vernicus said...

This would have been really funny had you not deleted the previous post conceding a major point and contradiction. Then challenging Skyhook to "crack open a textbook or two"

But I'll still post it, cause it's still pretty funny!

Kyle said...

Well, I try! ;) And let me just add one quick note to this discussion while I'm here and have had the time to read...and re-read...and still not fully understand THIS WEEKS POST...but I have some idea of what's going on here. As I said before, I have nothing substantial to contribute other than this:
I, myself, am not a christian. I believe in something that almost no one I know or have heard of believes: I believe that everyone is right. (except scientologists...I think we can all agree that they are insane) If you ever sat on the sidelines of a religious debate and made the concious effort to believe that both parites are right, they are both saying the same thing with the same meaning and the same subtext. As an actor...let's be honest, I'm a sub-par actor, but still studied "subtext"...you lear a lot about subtext. Let me try to explain what I learned the last time I watched a debate between an atheist and a fundemental christian:
"Why don't you see the truth?"
"Why don't you?"
"I want to help you understand."
"I want to help YOU understand."
"You are offending me with your assumptions"
"You are offending me with your assumptions"
"You are obviously too stupid to understand what is real and true."
"You are the stupid one who cannot see what is real and true!"
"I feel sorry for you, because you will never know what I know."
"I feel sorry for you for the same reason."
(and sometimes, if you're lucky)
"I'll take what you've said to me and try to understand your side more, but I will not waver from my original position"
"And I will make the same promise."

The bottom line, for me at least, is that everyone is right to their own beliefs. And everyone has the one true answer. Because the arguments are all the same: "You can believe that a random 1 in 999billion chance thingy started life with no explination of how or why but you can't just accept that God did it?" and "You can accept the writings of a book that's over 2000 years old written by flawed man in an age when people didn't understand the basic concepts of plumbing, let alone physics and science, but you can't accept the few facts that we have to shatter everything you hold sacred?" BOTH require a "leap of faith" in one way, shape, or form.
I just will never, ever understand why mankind is so hellbent (no pun intended) on proving each other wrong when it comes to something that makes the other person happy! On a dumb guy level (just for myself, obviously) it's just like music:
"I can't believe that you don't like Pearl Jam!"
"Well, I don't"
"There must be something wrong with you!"
and then there's:
"If you just sat down and REALLY LISTENED to Rush, you'd LOVE them as much as I do!"
"No, I really think I won't...you made me listen to it every freakin day at OU, and I'll be happy to never hear another Rush song as long as I live."

To be honest, that's probably the BEST you're gonna get out of me, Randy...
But I'll still be here to throw in a few awesome movie & TV references when I'm able to follow the subject material. ;)
--Kyle
Woah...the kaptka or however you spell that thingy that you have to type for verification is "geddes" which is close to Geddy which is the first name of the bass player/singer of Rush....eerie!!

Vernicus said...

Kyle,

Do you think abortion should be illegal?

Do you think Stem Cell Research should be illegal?

Do you think gay marriage should be illegal?

Do you think Marijuana should be illegal?

These are all something you will answer from a moral standpoint. They can't both be legal and illegal at the same time. One side thinks they are right, and in their righteousness, they force their morals on the rest of us. It's one thing to not want an abortion, it's another to tell someone else they can't have one because your morals speak for all.

See, there are more sides to this argument than Geddy's got symbols.

Kyle said...

True, however, our government runs things ALL WRONG. Take for example our friends in Europe. Abortion is illegal there based on a vote of the people...a popular vote. And no one complains about it, because the people spoke...not the government. And for the most part, the people accept it. When a few people in robes decide the fate of everyone in the country, the people have a hard time just being okay with that. And I understand that point.
As for your comment, though, I think that the blog isn't so much about social change or moral issues or any of that stuff. As far as I can understand, and...mind you, I'm a half-wit, it's about using science to prove God exists. Now...after the proof is in the pudding or not, then I guess we can start picking and choosing which parts of the bible to follow as LAW in the US and which parts are silly...but if you are wanting to know where _I_ stand on ALL of the "important" religious issues, I'm a libertarian, through and through. I don't care ONE BIT what you do with your body. As long as it only hurts you, I see no reason why people are not allowed to NOT wear seat belts, why we are not allowed to smoke crack and heroin, why we are not allowed to used abortion as birth control if we are female, and why two dudes or chicks can't live in hell with the rest of us married folks. As for stem cell research, I really have never understood the fundamental point of view on that issue...so, I'll just say that it should go away sooner or later. I mean...your choices are a: throw it away. b: before you throw it away, use it to find cures for serious disease! The choice seems clear. Now if the bill was to say "we need more stem cells for research, so we are going to make each person have a mandatory abortion." Well...I'd be against that. I'd have to say that breaches the limits of government.
But again...I'm not sure that this is the point of the blog in the first place.

..but what do I know?
I'm just a Rush fan (the music group, not the talk show host) who shared a room with the author for a year.
--Kyle

Kyle said...

And for GOD'S SAKE GEDDY WAS THE BASS PLAYER!! Neil was the drummer...the best drummer of all time...God given talent, if you will. ;) And in the grand scheme of things, he really only had about 12 cymbols at any given time.

Sorry...I re-read your post to see if I missed anything and TOTALLY missed the "more sides than..." blah blah...

..and as far as I'm concerned, if you can't get the THREE members of Rush stright, all of your arguments are completely invalid at this point. How can I trust your facts now?! ;)
--Kyle

Kyle said...

Ohhh..I feel like a real idiot now:
I just read your first post:

Randy said:
"Truth is absolute. If it is not absolute, it is no longer truth. Truth is not always provable, but it cannot be refuted by facts. When it comes to religious views, you may believe that we all hold pieces to the puzzle. You may believe that we’re all wrong. You may believe that God honors all who seek with admission into Heaven. You cannot, however, believe that all beliefs are true (i.e. that each holds “relative truth”) without discounting logic and reason."

....d'oh!
Guess I should read the stuff from January before I start spouting off idiotic ramblings.
--Kyle

Vernicus said...

I honestly thought Geddy was a girl for years, his vocals cut through me like nails on a chalkboard. I'm more a Ben Folds , Tim Minchin, and Elliot Smith kinda guy. But music is a fine example of what you're talking about. Although you are fond of Rush and I think Rush kinda sucks, we can still coexist because music isn't afforded the same social influence as religion.

My questions were an attempt to illustrate why "you're both right" doesn't really address the issue.

If you want to believe in the tooth fairy, that doesn't affect my life, so I'm cool with it. But when the tooth fairy starts telling you how I should live MY life, then we have a problem.

Now when you say:

"Take for example our friends in Europe. Abortion is illegal there based on a vote of the people...a popular vote."

Abortion isn't illegal in Europe. Abortion is illegal in Malta and kinda illegal in Ireland.

Steven Stark said...

I am a convert to Rush. I was never that in to them, but my band mates insisted. Now I will listen to Moving Pictures or Permanent Waves anyday (almost) and try to keep track of the time signature changes.

Because people can change too. "Everybody can change!" -Rocky IV

Kyle said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Vernicus said...

I wonder what other things I'm militant about? Is your friend militant in her disdain for Cake? Am I militant against poverty when I send my contribution to charity? Am I a militant anarchist when I voice my discontent with our current government?

Instead of a child/balloon, how about an architect designing a room for your child. Would you be so easy going if he came from a long line of people who thought it unnecessary to anchor to the foundation, even though it's common building practice and code?

You know Randy from college, I do not. There's a reason I'm on this blog and not on any one of the thousands of Christian blogs floating around. The reason is Randy claims the title of physicist, which carry's great weight. If Randy were an engineer offering his belief that anchoring the studs to the floor is unnecessary and not founded in engineering, I would be a militant engineer. But he's a scientist offering his belief that we don't need to anchor our understanding of the natural world with natural explanations.

I don't want my child sleeping in a room that's not anchored to the foundation, nor do I want people taking his belief not anchored in reality as science.

Kyle said...

Okay...I only have about 20 minutes before I have to meet with a speech pathologist about my son's very gay lisp...so let me do a quick and dirty shortcut:

"I wonder what other things I'm militant about?"

I never said you were. In fact, I said "to no one in particular." The fact that you brought yourself into that equation speaks volumes about your self impression. In fact, I wasn't really trying to imply YOU, just posing..or attempting to change the subject so that I didn't look like such a reatard with the whole "all religions are right" stance from earlier. It was more of a distraction from my idiocy, not to point out your self imposed militant image.

" Is your friend militant in her disdain for Cake?"

Yes.
And it's annoying.

"Am I militant against poverty when I send my contribution to charity?"

Depends on the letter your send with it, I guess.

"Am I a militant anarchist when I voice my discontent with our current government?"

The simple answer is no. Peacful discontent is not militant. Blowing up government buildings and trying to force a group to change with violence and aggression is. So no.


"Instead of a child/balloon, how about an architect designing a room for your child. Would you be so easy going if he came from a long line of people who thought it unnecessary to anchor to the foundation, even though it's common building practice and code?"

Since when is it okay to completely change an analogy to suit your outcome? My analogy is focused on the beliefs of people and why other people have to destroy them based on the beliefs they have. Yours is based on structure and foundation, which in my humble opinion has nothing to do with a person's individual viewpoint. But if we're going to split hypothetical hairs here, then yeah, I would have a problem with that architect...but I would hire one that meets my strict, reality based demands...not pop his balloon. Isn't that...what you do in a real life scenario that you yourself just posed?

"You know Randy from college, I do not."

I know him from jr. high, high school, and one year of college..give or take a few years that I saw him off and on after I failed. ;) He's like a brother. We get along very well, seldom argue, and we are able to pick up where we left off even if we haven't seen each other in years...so nothing like a REAL brother, I guess...

"There's a reason I'm on this blog and not on any one of the thousands of Christian blogs floating around."

HA! For some reason, I highly doubt that you haven't popped other people's balloons in other blogs.

"The reason is Randy claims the title of physicist, which carry's great weight."

The colleges that he went to gave him that title. :)

"If Randy were an engineer offering his belief that anchoring the studs to the floor is unnecessary and not founded in engineering, I would be a militant engineer."

And whisky before beer...that's a beer engineer!

"But he's a scientist offering his belief that we don't need to anchor our understanding of the natural world with natural explanations."

So many big words...and only 5 minutes left...
...let me just say that the stuff I have read from this blog points to people arguing physics and math and studies of those things to ultimately prove or disprove the existance of a higher power. And so far, all I have read from you is critisism of the religious principles and general statements about society and the laws that are imposed based on religious belief.


"I don't want my child sleeping in a room that's not anchored to the foundation, nor do I want people taking his belief not anchored in reality as science."

Then attack the science...not the structure.
--Kyle

Vernicus said...

"I'm not speaking to anyone in particular" is a top-secret cloaking device. When used in an argument, you can simply preface any backhanded slight with "I'm not speaking to anyone in particular" and rest easy knowing you've covered your tracks.

In regard to my balloon popping shenanigans, you caught me. I'm part of a vast conspiracy who lives for exposing Santa as a fraud to elementary school children, stealing teeth from pillows and not leaving a dollar, and posting resistance on dozens of theist message boards. I was assigned this blog by my handler, and he will be very disappointed when he finds out I've exposed our vast underground network known as Anon.

I think the odd thing about this new dynamic is this:

My perception of Kyle is Randy's perception of Me. Randy's "don't feed the trolls" approach to handling my presence is my initial reaction to Kyle's, but that wouldn't be fair, cause then I would be invalidating my own presence.

I look forward to next week!

I've missed the internets!

Kyle said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Vernicus said...

"I have nothing to add of any intellectual value to your stuff.... I'm just a giant turd in the room for this conversation .... You have no idea how far over my head this all goes....The bottom line, for me at least, is that everyone is right to their own beliefs .... I'm a half-wit ... but what do I know? It was more of a distraction from my idiocy .... There is a point in life where most of us with lower IQ's should just allow the grown ups to talk."

You're too hard on yourself, let's be friends!

Kyle said...

Which part do you guys think upsets him more: That he is arguing with a self proclaimed half wit? Or that he, like many other people on the planet have not come to realize the simple law of the internet? (since we are so big on laws and theories and such) That law being: "Arguing on the internet is a lot like being in the special olympics: even if you win, you're still retarded."
I'm okay with it. ;)
As for being friends...sure. Why not. I'm a pretty friendly guy. Plus, it seems like we share the same religious belief...so let's hang out. I'll buy you a beer when you're old enough.
--Kyle
--Kyle

Vernicus said...

I'm having a blast! I'm arguing with Randy on the origins of life and the merits of a supernatural explanation.

You and I, we're just fooling around.

Skyhook said...

The gap continues to narrow.

Science and technology marches on.

Molecule of life emerges from laboratory slime. (NewScientist)
[Nature 459, 239-242 (14 May 2009)]